Ping big worm

[runwild]

Hello big worm
Glad to see someone else with a interest in self reliance in fuel production. What you wish to do is more than possible. Most here are happy distilling spirits & vary closed minded to that end at least you received Some reply’s more than what I did. Many here have the education & experience to push the envelope on this subject. Most of the worlds greatest inventions came from people with open minds & small shops not willing to settle for the status-quo. With the combined knowledge & experience of the people of is forum We could gain a large part of are pay checks back one drop at a time. Lets all put are heads together and have Are fuel and spirits too.

How about this.
1. 12 in. column diameter.
2. Stripper column height 22.5 ft.
3. Rectifier column height 27 ft.
4. Re-boiler 100 gal.
5. Re-boiler heat exchanger area 90 sq. ft.
6. Mash intake 100 gal. per hour 10 to 12 gal of 85% ore better ethanol over the same time.
8. Vacuum of 18 to 22 in. of mercury allowing for a re-boiler temp of only 125 degrees saving 87 degrees of heat.
9. Re-boiler can also aid in fermentation process by keeping steady temp. for the yeast.
10. After the first run use ethanol in small jenny to run required pumps

Here is a link to help you on your way copy paste Change ** to tt in the link

h**p://www.motherearthnews.com/Homesteading-and-Self-Reliance/1981-11-01/Mothers-Home-Scale-Vacuum-Distillery.aspx

runwild

[Shroud]

Well hang on now, before you start insulting...

You see, I like the idea of homemade fuel. Here's the problem. As of right now, I don't believe that the resources you would put into producing homemade fuel are offset by the fuel you would get. In other words, take all the electricity or propane used to heat the water to clean your fermenters and equipment. Add in the fuel used to heat your still for distillation. Don't forget the energy needed to get the water into your house/workshop. Then there's the energy and resources needed to produce and ship the bleach or other sanitizing agent you use. How'd you get your yeast? It was probably shipped from quite a ways away. Now farm and harvest a respectable amount of plant matter to ferment. I don't want to beat a dead horse; I'm sure you could continue this list for me. The amount of fuel you got in return probably wouldn't be worth all the resources that went into its production.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm glad there are guys like you out there experimenting with it and learning the best ways to produce home grown fuel. Someday it might not be a choice. Who knows? Maybe you'll be the one to find a way to make it a net gain in energy.

Just please don't call me close minded because I see the immediate savings in energy to be eating the stuff in my garden so that my food doesn't have to be shipped from far away, instead of fermenting it to put in my gas tank.

[HookLine]

Hey Shroud, check the date of that post you responded to.

[Shroud]

I figure people click on their "view your posts" when they login. At least I do, just to see if anyone has responded to me. Don't you?

Even if he's long gone... well, at least you saw my response, right?

[eternalfrost]

I think that personal ethanol production is interesting to think/tinker with. but realistically, it is a negative sum endeavor for the vast majority of people.

I think the only realistic scenarios are a farmer fermenting waste products to subsidize his fuel costs, or a full-blown industrial plant.

the one aspect which could make home-fuel production feasible would be a cheap easy way to ferment fibrous waste. i.e. turning your yard/paper waste into fuel rather then composting. there is some research into this (see kudzunol) but its more of a chemistry project then average people on this forum would be digging into.

[Shroud]

Come to think of it, aren't many fermented beverages able to trace their origins to agricultural waste? "Brandy" peaches, rum, grappa, etc. Perhaps if a day comes that fuel costs make its production more profitable than distilled beverages, we will see a decline in these products and an increase in distilleries cranking out fuel ethanol from these sources. It's all just people trying to turn waste into profit.

[HookLine]

Even if he's long gone... well, at least you saw my response, right?

That's true.

[Ugly]

Shroud, some of us can already produce energy cheaply.

What you've said depends on your energy input source and it's value. If you can already produce stationary energy at a low cost from other sources (waste wood, sawdust, free veggie oil etc) then making ethanol from products you can grow on your land is cost effective.

Farming an additional two acres of sugar beets adds very little to our incremental costs.

The beauty of ethanol is that we can use it for mobile applications with minimal vehicle modification (they can still use gasoline) and not have to change everything over to diesel.

Additionally, there's value in burning a cleaner, renewable energy source that goes beyond it's price tag.

Effectively by producing ethanol we're exchanging one biofuel energy source (wood byproducts) with another (ethanol).

[eternalfrost]

I think the only realistic scenarios are a farmer fermenting waste products to subsidize his fuel costs, or a full-blown industrial plant.

Farming an additional two acres of sugar beets adds very little to our incremental costs.

how many of us have two extra acres to throw around...

[Shroud]

Ugly - I'll not deny that it might be possible for some, in ideal circumstances, to make ethanol with a positive net energy outcome. I agree that it will probably be from agricultural waste, as eternal frost said, not from crops grown specifically for that purpose. I also think it will take a little bit bigger of a still most of us are working with to make it possible.

I was addressing the generalized insults in the original post. For most people, in most circumstances, I don't see how producing ethanol at home could be worth the energy input. Even very organized large plants have a hard time making it work. I have a brother in law that works as a project manager for an engineering company. His last project was overseeing an ethanol plant. He said the engineers that designed the thing still argue over whether or not it actually reduces overall carbon emissions. Trainloads of coal to heat the giant "still" and to produce the electricity to run the plant itself rumble by almost one every twenty minutes, 24 hours a day, according to him.

Don't get me wrong. I still think it's a great idea that people are working with it. I'm sure someone smart enough to make it economical and ecological will figure it all out someday. I just didn't like being called "closed minded" because I don't think my 8 gallon pot still and 1 city lot of sandy, acidic soil that will barely grow dandelions are going to aid in the world's ethanol supply. I'm envious that you have an extra 2 acres to plant for such purposes. I wish I had 2 acres period! Keep doing what you're doing and keep great records. I believe you are doing some very valuable research.

[Ugly]

I believe self reliance in terms of energy production is not only feasible but easy for small homesteaders and farmers. I'm a big believe is using what's available. Most of the time for stationary apps we've begun using wood products utilizing century old wood gasification technology.

The advantages to ethanol as a power source is that it mimics gasoline in mobile applications, liquid storage design and is within the envelope for energy output per litre (80%) such that modifications for gas engines is relatively easy.

I am a mechanical engineer by education only, retired by choice and farmer by birth, I'd be a total idiot to not seek energy independence. If I can maintain a carbon neutral footprint and still produce enough milk and meat to feed some of the teaming masses, then by all means, why not.

Ethanol is not the be all and end all of green energy, but it does have a place and I hope research can make it easier to harness.

Regards
Ugly

[Shroud]

I admire your attitude, Ugly. I wish more people had it. We certainly need some sort of portable and easily stored energy source, such as ethanol or hydrogen for our cars. Either that or cheap, powerful, and biodegradable batteries. Energy independence is also a highly valuable asset. More so than most people realize, I think. People are starting to, however. Like I said in an earlier post, I'm glad people are working on ethanol production, because someday it might not be an option.